Originally posted by megaira:
And, I have to ask, it looks like a willow tree in the picture...do they even grow in
Arizona? They're water sucking leaches. I may have been mistaken, it could be a
cottonwood, but they're water hungry as well.
I noticed that same thing! I am so
glad it wasn't just me. I don't know a whole lot about the flora of Arizona, but it seemed
a bit "off" to me.
Huh? Do you guys imagine that all
of Arizona looks like the Rub al Khali of Saudi Arabia? Ever been to Flagstaff? Strange
enough, there are plenty of Willow Trees in the state.
(I'm reminded of people who think that Inuit all live in Igloos...)
Silas
Ouch, Silas! I never said that. In
fact, I was very clear in stating that I "don't know much about the flora in
Arizona". I still think those photos looked odd. But sorry that I'm not an expert on
Arizona wildlife and plants. I was responding to what meg said because it was something
I'd wondered about too.
I'm more than a little insulted by the igloos/Inuits comment. That was uncalled for, IMO.
ETA: I see that it was sort of worked out between Silas and meg. I still take offense to
the condescending comment though. I have relatives in Arizona. I realize there are
different areas of the state that have vasty different landscape. Again, that's the reason
I mentioned that I wondered about the photo. I wasn't being snarky and don't agree
that a "saucy" response was warranted.
--------------------
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the
ice." - Dr. Sidney Friedman from M*A*S*H*
Posts:
1343 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Aug 2002 |
Silas has explained where he was
coming from and apologized. I trust that he was being flip, that he was attempting to add
a little light-hearted humor to the discussion.
How can anyone get pissed off at Silas, fer chrissake? It's like getting angry at Brad
from Georgia or Noemi.
--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
Posts:
5837 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000 |
Originally posted by tagurit: Silas has explained where he was coming from and apologized. I trust that he was
being flip, that he was attempting to add a little light-hearted humor to the discussion.
How can anyone get pissed off at Silas, fer chrissake? It's like getting angry at Brad
from Georgia or Noemi.
Is this thread even about Kyoko
anymore anyway? I feel like this is the "just stopped in to grab a cup of coffee and
catch up with the guys" thread. The one place *everybody* shows up at. Maybe not.
--------------------
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill
Posts:
3560 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2001 |
Wow, this has expanded in the last
couple of days.
RE: "Maroon" (sorry, that post was a long time ago, and I'm not going back to
quote or address directly the person whom asked me about it).
No, I'm not 100% positive that Bugg's use of the word was racist, however, you'll note
that the definition said that the word referred to escaped slaves of the 17th and 18th
centuries, not that it was a 17th or 18th century word for those slaves. I only posted the
first definition of it, and none of the definitions of it as such declare it archaic.
That said, I'm not sure that I'd exactly call it a common usage word, but we're talking
about cartoons from back in the day. Unfortunately, genius though they are, classic Warner
Brothers cartoons are no strangers to casual racism, although you're less likely to
see the more dodgy ones these days. But let's not forget that this is the same rabbit that
has, on occasion, been known to tell people to get their "cotton-picking" hands
off something ro other.
So, no, I don't know for sure that there's any definate racism in the Buggs Bunny usage of
the term, but it wouldn't be out of character. As for it being used in more modern
contexts, it's entirely possible that the production teams decided that they could get
away witho using the word, as most people seem to associate it with the corruption of the
word "moron" (not to imply racism on the current output of the studio, merely
that it's a well-known Buggs catchphrase they may not have wanted to retire, so simply
changed what they mean it to mean (if you know what I mean)). Or, of course, the
production staff over the years may well have actually lost what the word originally meant
themselves.
Or, maybe it is just meant as a corruption of the word "moron", after all.
BTW, a quick google search reveals that the word "maroon" being used for escaped
slaves is still in use today.
--------------------
You know, they tell you to never hit a man with a closed fist but it is, on occasion,
hilarious.
Originally posted by tagurit: Silas has explained where he was coming from and apologized. I trust that he was
being flip, that he was attempting to add a little light-hearted humor to the discussion.
How can anyone get pissed off at Silas, fer chrissake? It's like getting angry at Brad
from Georgia or Noemi.
I never said I was pissed. I guess
this is my cue to get out of the thread.
Sorry if I offended anyone. It was never the intent.
--------------------
"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the
ice." - Dr. Sidney Friedman from M*A*S*H*
Posts:
1343 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Aug 2002 |
But let's not forget that this is
the same rabbit that has, on occasion, been known to tell people to get their
"cotton-picking" hands off something ro other.
Is that racist? My mother says
that all the time. It's one of her faux swear words. She says it when she means
"damn" or "goddamn," which is the context I assumed it was meant on
the cartoons. I've never once heard that it may be racist.
Gibbie
--------------------
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Posts:
922 | From: A galaxy far far away | Registered: Feb 2000
|
Is the term "cotton-picking
hands" also racist? I had no idea. My mom picked cotton when she was growing up. I've
heard the term all my life but never put it together in my mind that it was perhaps meant
in a derogatory way.
Now that I think more on it, perhaps it was meant in a bad way towards the poor,
rather than a racist thing (kind of like saying "your good-for-nothing hands").
And look, for once I have a reply that matches my [new] signature!
--------------------
"I'm not leaving until I get a mummy hand."
Posts:
272 | From: somewhere in NC | Registered: Aug 2003 |
But let's not forget that this is
the same rabbit that has, on occasion, been known to tell people to get their
"cotton-picking" hands off something ro other.
Is that racist? My mother says
that all the time. It's one of her faux swear words. She says it when she means
"damn" or "goddamn," which is the context I assumed it was meant on
the cartoons. I've never once heard that it may be racist.
Gibbie
Seconded--color me stunned!
However, I am the the "moron" who originally brought up "maroon". I
should just stay with "ignoramususus".
Thorny "I KNEW I shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque" Rose
But let's not forget that this is
the same rabbit that has, on occasion, been known to tell people to get their
"cotton-picking" hands off something ro other.
Is that racist? My mother says
that all the time. It's one of her faux swear words. She says it when she means
"damn" or "goddamn," which is the context I assumed it was meant on
the cartoons. I've never once heard that it may be racist.
It could be construed as racist,
if one believes that all cotton was picked by black slaves, and cotton plantations did
take advantage of slavery, generally speaking. However, a lot of cotton was picked by
non-blacks also.
Cotton is notoriously rough and harsh to the hands. Hand picking cotton and pulling the
fiber from the rough hull is hard on the hands. Cotton pickers usually would have hands
that are torn up and bloody. I think this is where the expression is derived from.
tag
--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
Posts:
5837 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000 |
--------------------
"Although I laugh and I act like a clown
Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown
My tears are falling like rain from the sky
Is it for her or myself that I cry?
Im a loser and Im not what I appear to be"
But let's not forget that this is
the same rabbit that has, on occasion, been known to tell people to get their
"cotton-picking" hands off something ro other.
Is that racist? My mother says
that all the time. It's one of her faux swear words. She says it when she means
"damn" or "goddamn," which is the context I assumed it was meant on
the cartoons. I've never once heard that it may be racist.
It could be construed as racist,
if one believes that all cotton was picked by black slaves, and cotton plantations did
take advantage of slavery, generally speaking. However, a lot of cotton was picked by
non-blacks also.
Cotton is notoriously rough and harsh to the hands. Hand picking cotton and pulling the
fiber from the rough hull is hard on the hands. Cotton pickers usually would have hands
that are torn up and bloody. I think this is where the expression is derived from.
tag
My manager at Burger King said
"cotton-picking" to my co-workers all the time. She and the co-workers were all
African-American. I did wonder if the term was racist. I did assume that someone would
construe it that way.
OT, but did anyone see the lady get upset on the Apprentice when someone used the
"pot and kettle" analogy? Does anyone know if that considered racist? I've never
considered it to be. I think she was being ridiculous. I'd be interested to see if anyone
else knows something about it.
Originally posted by Christie: Is this thread even about Kyoko anymore anyway? I feel like this is the "just
stopped in to grab a cup of coffee and catch up with the guys" thread. The one place
*everybody* shows up at. Maybe not.
Yep. It's a nice little spot to
put your feet up and chew the fat. I mean, cookie.
--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
Posts:
5837 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000 |
But the noun cotton-picker is
older. It dates to around 1919 and refers to a contemptable person. Those who worked in
the fields, usually blacks, were beneath notice. The racial overtones have mellowed over
the years, but it is still a derogatory term.
But I have a hard time believing
it. Why cotton pickers? Why not tobacco pickers or any other crop? It doesn't make sense.
Edit: I still believe it comes from the condition of the hands of cotton pickers, in some
manner.
--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
Posts:
5837 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000 |
Originally posted by tagurit: Wordorigins also says this:
But I have a hard time believing
it. Why cotton pickers? Why not tobacco pickers or any other crop? It doesn't make sense. [/QUOTE]
Bacuase while slaves were used in a number of areas, the vast majority were in the south,
where the largest crops were cotton, and where over time the slaves were treated worse and
the worst of the "racial slurs" were born and used. Not saying it didn't go on
all over, but becomes of geography etc it teneded to be souther focused...
Couse I'm you aveage white male, and I've picked cotton (it does hurt). And it wasn't even
in the south...
Warlok
--------------------
Inconceivable
Posts:
1570 | From: Somewhere in here | Registered: Oct 2001
|
Originally posted by tagurit: Wordorigins also says this:
quote:
But the noun cotton-picker is
older. It dates to around 1919 and refers to a contemptable person. Those who worked in
the fields, usually blacks, were beneath notice. The racial overtones have mellowed over
the years, but it is still a derogatory term.
But I have a hard time believing
it. Why cotton pickers? Why not tobacco pickers or any other crop? It doesn't make sense.
Edit: I still believe it comes from the condition of the hands of cotton pickers, in some
manner.
We've used that expression for as
long as I can remember. Usually when we're *jokingly* accusing someone of potential theft.
As in "Hey keep your cotton picking hands to yourself these are MY cookies".
:shrug: Same with maroon, usually we say scornfully "what an ultra maroon". I
never knew it was even possible to think of it as racist . Learn something knew everyday I guess.
--------------------
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill
Posts:
3560 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2001 |
Having worked as a cotton picker,
I would cheerfully use the term "cotton-pickin'" to refer to any irritating,
exhausting, and almost pointless endeavor.
"When them cotton bolls get rotten you can't pick very much cotton," my foot.
Cotton bolls are sharp little razor-faced finger traps. Each one holds approximately the
same amount of cotton you would find on the end of a Q-tip. And you're supposed to fill
this GIGANTIC burlap bag, longer than you are tall, with millions of these little
fluffballs.
I see the term as referring to the sheer drudgework and triviality of this kind of stoop
labor. Usually when I've heard the term, it hasn't been applied to people: "Wait just
a cotton-pickin' minute!" is more usual. For me the implication is "Interrupt
the irritating thing you are doing and listen to this for a minute." Or words to that
effect.
Like "Evolution." Don't it just sound tacky?
--------------------
"Friday the thirteenth come on a Friday this month--urk!"--Walt Kelly
Originally posted by tagurit: I still believe it comes from the condition of the hands of cotton pickers, in
some manner.
You're probalby right. But I
believe it caught on, not because it made sense to anyone or because it was racist, but
because it feels good coming off the tongue. Like whippersnapper, or dingbat, or
dagnabbit. The words don't mean a flippin thing, but they're fun to say and give your
speech a satisfying rhythm.
--------------------
"The candy bar! It taunts me!" - Mr. Cookies-mmm
Originally posted by tagurit: ]But I have a hard time believing it. Why cotton pickers? Why not tobacco pickers
or any other crop? It doesn't make sense.
To reap the most profits and to
provide the labor needed for cotton picking, a large number of slaves were imported into
South Carolina and Georgia, and slave labor became a valuable market throughout the South.
The way into the Southern aristocracy was through the ownership of land and slaves, and
the way to get land and slaves was to grow cotton: the crop provided the cash and credit
to buy both. At this time, too, the cotton kingdom pushed ever westward with planters
searching for new and richer soils to grow more white cotton with the labor of more black
slaves. Ironically, just as abolition-1st sentiment was increasing in the United States,
the invention of the cotton gin instigated a deeper entrenchment of slavery into the
Southern economy and society.
...
Antebellum history often seems dominated by scenes of plantations worked by slaves.
Although thousands of large plantations employed slave labor and produced most of the
South's cotton, numerically there were more small farmers, mostly whites, who cultivated
the upland areas. Many of these yeomen were subsistence farmers and produced only a
surplus of cotton for market. Southern farmers who did not grow cotton sold some of their
foodstuff to the planters. Cotton could bring prosperity or depression, according to
changes in the market, and these fluctuations meant very differing experiences for whites,
slaves, and antebellum free blacks of each different region of the South.
When at its peak, the demanding cultivation and transportation of cotton required the
labor of the majority of men, women, and children in the rural South. Most Southern life
was regulated by the agricultural economy, and more and more over time, this came to mean
the cotton economy. Although free workers and slaves pursued a diversity of agricultural
and industrial occupations in the antebellum South, by 1850 the routine of taking care of
the white-blossomed, white-bolled, short-staple cotton plants increasingly typified rural
Southern existence.
By 1860, cotton ruled the South, which annually exported two-thirds of the world supply of
the "white gold."
buf 'don't make me break out the
story about the boll
weevil' ungla
--------------------
"Abortion is wasted on the unborn" - Mouse
Posts:
3101 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2001 |
Originally posted by Spam &
Cookies- Songs for Dustmites:
quote:
Originally posted by tagurit: I still believe it comes from the condition of the hands of cotton pickers, in
some manner.
You're probalby right. But I
believe it caught on, not because it made sense to anyone or because it was racist, but
because it feels good coming off the tongue. Like whippersnapper, or dingbat, or
dagnabbit. The words don't mean a flippin thing, but they're fun to say and give your
speech a satisfying rhythm.
Yep, and as an alternative to
:gasp: really swearing. I know when I've used the term cotton picking I could just as
easily be saying some of the terms used in the OP but I'm either in a situation where that
kind of swearing is not apppropriate or is just not serious enough to use the "bad
words".
--------------------
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill
Posts:
3560 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2001 |
Admittedly that was a bit of
conjecture on my part. I realize that a lot of terms are racist. I also realize that a lot
of terms that didn't start out being racist ended up that way. I also think that a lot of
terms that never had anything to do with racism may be perceived as racist.
I see cotton picking cotton pickers as harmless.
I think Brad's theory may be just as correct or possibly more correct than mine.
I don't use the term cotton picking/er but they seem relatively harmless to me.
Edit: Aye. Right you are, Bufungla. Thanks.
tag
--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
Posts:
5837 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2000 |
Why can I not stop reading this
thread?! I have learned more here in the last few days...I am now an expert in the flora
of southwest America, religious zealots baking cookies, possibly offensive terms, and
Judah's skidmarked undies.
I think we've solved the mysteries of life, folks.
--------------------
"I make him better, Humperdinck suffers?"
"Humiliations galore."
"Now THAT, sonny, is a noble cause. Give me the 65, I'm on the job!"
Posts:
311 | From: Connecticut | Registered: May 2003 |
Actually, I questioned the
inclusion of "cotton-picking" myself. It's one my mum uses, and she's far from
racist.
However, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that it was a racist term,
albeit one whose racism is lost in time. To me, being a "cotton picker" is just
one of many (not necessarily, but usually) American racial stereotypes of black people,
along with eating watermelon (or fried chicken), being a "spearchucker", having
rhythm or having a large penis. I mean nobody here would argue (or at least I hope not)
that only black people eat watermelon or that all black people have rhythm. However, were
people to read a description of someone (particularly a not-very flattering one) where
they were described as eating watermelon with rhythm, then I think most people could see
the stereotype that was being presented.
--------------------
You know, they tell you to never hit a man with a closed fist but it is, on occasion,
hilarious.
Originally posted by tagurit: Silas has explained where he was coming from and apologized.
Actually, I only "sort of" apologized... I did the old "I'm
sorry...but..." thing... I was still angry...
I'm sorry. I'm seriously sorry. I never intended to hurt anyone's feelings. I was trying
to use mild sarcasm, as between friends -- the technical term is "badinage" --
and I messed up. I misjudged the effects of my words.
megaira and ali_marea are good people, whom I admire sincerely, and whom I would never
consciously attempt to hurt.
quote:
How can anyone get pissed off at Silas, fer chrissake? It's like getting angry at Brad
from Georgia or Noemi.
Bless you for saying it, but it
ain't so. I'm not worthy to wash their feet (nor compute their operational parameters.)
It is, however, mildly amusing that we can have a lengthy discussion of abortion in which
no one lost their temper...and angry words were exchanged over willow trees... Only on
snopes!
Silas
--------------------
There are tales of little greenies
told by Turks to Vietnamese,
told by kids to scare their mommies,
by Haoles to Malahinis.
Posts:
7973 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
|
Originally posted by trollface: Actually, I questioned the inclusion of "cotton-picking" myself. It's
one my mum uses, and she's far from racist.
However, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that it was a racist term,
albeit one whose racism is lost in time. To me, being a "cotton picker" is just
one of many (not necessarily, but usually) American racial stereotypes of black people,
along with eating watermelon (or fried chicken), being a "spearchucker", having
rhythm or having a large penis. I mean nobody here would argue (or at least I hope not)
that only black people eat watermelon or that all black people have rhythm. However, were
people to read a description of someone (particularly a not-very flattering one) where
they were described as eating watermelon with rhythm, then I think most people could see
the stereotype that was being presented.
Ok, just a teeny-weeney nitpick.
These are northern stereotypes of blacks that filtered into the rest of American society.
They aren't as universal American stereotypes as one would think. Besides, racism in the
South was far more straightforward. No need to hide one's racist tendencies behind
stereotypes when one can come right out and say whatever hateful thing one wants. And
since "cotton-pickin'" is used extensively in the South, I'd say it doesn't have
much inthe way of racist overtones, if it really ever did.
~As the daughter of a watermelon eatin, fried chicken cookin' cotton picker, I stand by my
claim~
Edited for clarity.
--------------------
"You mean we all brought potato salad?" - Terry Prachett
Posts:
1939 | From: almost the desert | Registered: Oct 2001
|
Turnbuckle is a great exclamation, for one... And there's alway the classic poop deck,
with it's lesser known cousin, the foc'stle. That one is just too easy.
'tienne
--------------------
Please feed the sharks before I jump.
Posts:
430 | From: In the Middle of a Snowstorm | Registered: Dec 2001
|
Originally posted by Etienne,
kitchen, with the plunger: Just way 'till I bring out the nautical terms :-D
Turnbuckle is a great exclamation, for one... And there's alway the classic poop deck,
with it's lesser known cousin, the foc'stle. That one is just too easy.
'tienne
Bollards!
Posts:
7973 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
|
The least satisfying fake cuss
word I know is "tanj" from the Ringworld books. I know, it means "there
ain't no justice" and it's Niven and all, but there's just no flavor to it. No bite.
--------------------
"The candy bar! It taunts me!" - Mr. Cookies-mmm
My favourite fake cuss word at the
moment was invented by my OH, scruttocks, I'm not sure that's how it's spelt, or even if
it should be written down, but I love it!
BTW What did happen to Spider in the Ointment? Did he just stop posting? Or did I miss a
grand exit?
Holly 'quite liked his antagonistic ways. But didn't notice he'd gone until now' Golightly
Originally posted by Holly
Golightly:
BTW What did happen to Spider in the Ointment? Did he just stop posting? Or did I miss a
grand exit?
As I understand it he was
banned.... I'm sure there's a thread somewhere, but it seems he used to badger snopes
about the way the forum was run, and was warned on several occasions that whinging was
rude and wouldn't be tolerated, then he made some post about how he didn't like...
something, on the forum (can't remember what) for like the fiftieth time, and so he was
banned. I think that's how it happened anyway, it was more of a slow trickle rather than a
ball of fire.
Posts:
1143 | From: 51.38 N, 2.35 W (ish) | Registered: Oct 2002
|
posted
posted
posted
posted
posted
posted
I mean, cookie.
. Learn something knew everyday I guess.
posted
posted
Topic Closed